Continued from link मांगा spoilers ahead! Beware!
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NaokoElric writes...
"This brings me onto Ling Yao and Ran Fan. As I कहा earlier, Ran प्रशंसक is mere servant (still cool though, I प्यार her as much as Izumi, Olivier, Hughes and Alex) and not the royalty figure, which Ling is. I know a man (Fu) was a servant too, but that makes no difference!"
Um...why not? Why is it so horrible for Ran प्रशंसक to be a servant, but not Fu? Just because one's a girl and one's a guy? That seems like reverse-sexism to me, which isn't any better than normal sexism. Anytime someone says आप CAN'T do something या choose something because you're this gender या that gender...that's sexism. If I want to be a homemaker या a cook when I grow up, then that's MY choice for ME and I won't have anyone telling me to pick a less "sexist" occupation just because I happen to fit some stereotype they don't like.
*cough* Sorry, didn't mean to rant there...I've gotten too much online crap about this in the past, that's all. Moving on!
"Ran प्रशंसक (a ninja) was turned into a true Damsel in Distress when she was attacked द्वारा Wrath (taken out with just ONE STRIKE!) and had to be rescued and protected द्वारा Ling, a boy and the person she was supposed to be protecting! It just really pisses me off!"
At a glance, I can understand why it makes आप mad, but look at the actual scene. It wasn't because Ran प्रशंसक was weak; it was because she didn't know Wrath wasn't human and was caught completely द्वारा surprise. If she had known what was coming या had an idea of what she was going up against, she would have easily put up और of a fight. Also, while Wrath called her "baggage", Ling called her "friend". He clearly respects and cares for her a lot. I see this the same way I saw the scene with Ed comforting Winry - not a boy saving a girl, but a friend being there for a friend.
"In addition, because she got this injury and had to cut off her arm,"
(Which was AWESOMELY BADASS, I might add...)
"she was out of the majority of the story while Ling got all the adventure and attention!"
I really missed her too, and I do wish she'd gotten और attention in the story. However, her return was also AWESOMELY BADASS with her awesomely badass automail and the awesomely badass-ish way she owned Gluttony, so that somewhat makes up for it in my book. =D
"Ling should have either been female and Ran प्रशंसक male, या Ran प्रशंसक should have been with Ling the whole time, then I would not feel Arakawa-sensei was being sexist towards her own gender."
Once again, I fail to see any real, substantial sexism here, but still encourage आप to have fun with the genderbending. (I do agree and share your frustration that Ran प्रशंसक should have stayed with Ling longer, though. She's so awesome, yet we see so little of her...)
"Now, on to Mei Chan. Even though I do adore her, as she is a "Little Miss Badass" and can use Rentanjutsu, she was still made to cry a lot. For example, when she लॉस्ट Xiao Mei, when Alphonse gave himself over to the gate to restore Edward's arm in मांगा Chapter 107 and when she thought Alphonse was gone."
I can't for the life of me understand why आप think crying is such a bad thing. Crying isn't weak; it's a natural, healthy outlet for your emotions and there's no shame in that for either gender. I cried when my dog ran away and didn't come घर for two days, and I was 16. Why can't a 12/13-year-old Mei cry over her beloved pet, too? As for when Al sacrificed himself...my प्रिय word...[b]context!
Think about it...she's grown to प्यार Al and care a lot about him (at the very least, she has a huge crush on him). They're in the middle of a life-and-death battle, it looks like Father might win, and then Al asks her to do a very hard thing: help him trade his own soul for Ed's arm and everyone's salvation, because he can't do it without her. In a way, it's almost like he's asking her to help kill him या send him into exile. The Gate's no walk in the park. How would आप feel if someone आप cared about asked आप to do something like that? She loves Al. When she thinks he's gone forever - and that it's partly her fault - of course she's going to cry! That doesn't make her sexist; it makes her human! (Ed cried when he लॉस्ट Al too, after they tried to bring back their mom. Does that make him weak as well?)
"In addition, just like Riza and Ran Fan, she had to be rescued! This happens every time she attacked Father. In both incidents, like Ran प्रशंसक before here, it takes ONE BLOODY STRIKE to defeat her and needing rescue and protection द्वारा a boy (Alphonse)! However, the male characters seem to be quite well for a while, despite the fact two of them (the Elrics Brothers) cannot use Alchemy."
But the Elrics were human sacrifices, remember? Father wanted to keep them in good condition, so of course they made it out alright in the first situation. The boys were useful to him; that's the ONLY reason why they survived. And while they couldn't use their alchemy and still avoided injury, they were still rendered powerless द्वारा Envy holding them down...until Mei came along and gave them all a giant rentanjutsu knuckle sandwich. xD Looking back on that fight scene, I think Mei held her own against the humunculi pretty well, until she was distracted for a विभाजित करें, विभक्त करें सेकंड and caught off-guard द्वारा Gluttony. He was the one who took her out that time, not Father; and I think it was और of a fluke than a real, final "defeat". (Also, Mei gets a bit ticked off when Al saves her. "I didn't ask for your help!" If she's a Damsel in Distress, she's a reluctant one.)
As for the सेकंड time...let's get real, here. This is Father we're talking about. The main, ultimate villian. Not even Ed and Al were brave/foolish enough to take him head-on at first. But Mei got cocky, diving straight in before thinking, and that's how she got taken out. Also, keep in mind that she's fast, agile and smart...but muscle-wise, she's no Armstrong. =P Does that make her weak? No, she's just strong in other ways.
"Why, Arakawa-sensei? Why? Why did आप do this, even thought it is clearly implying woman/girls are और easily defeated and weaker than man/boys when we are not?"
Oh yes, CLEARLY Arakawa must have sat up all night rubbing her hands together and thinking, "I'm going to purposely and obviously imply that girls are weaker than boys and put a whole bunch of sexism in my story just to make NaokoElric mad! AND I WILL USE IT FOR WORLD DOMINATION! MWAHAHAHAHAAA..."
"Even Olivier (the great and powerful General) had to get help from her brother to defeat Sloth the सेकंड time around, because Arakawa could not have her defeat him on her own, oh no (I know Izumi and Sig help too)."
Then this point is negated, because Olivier wasn't just saved द्वारा her brother. She was saved because everyone - her brother, Izumi and Sig - all teamed up together with her to defeat Sloth. It was a team effort, not just a man helping a woman.
And I don't think ANYONE could defeat Sloth all on their own, male या female... O.o
"We have absolutely no scenes featuring female characters rescuing/saving the lives of male characters (Mei saving Halling does not count, as Halling was a minor character). However, there were plenty of scenes featuring male characters rescuing/saving the lives of female characters (as I have mentioned above)."
आप do have a good point here, and I agree it would have been refreshing to see at least a couple girl-saves-guy scenes. However, I'd like to point out that you don't necessarily have to jump in front of someone या whisk them away from danger to "save" them, and there are examples of this in the manga:
1) Riza saved Roy at least two times. The first time, she knocked him out of the way and used her बंदूकों when he first went up against Scar on that rainy day. The सेकंड time, she acted as his eyes when he went blind and helped him take Father down a few notches. He would've been completely helpless if she hadn't been there to guide him. (Oh symbolism, how I प्यार thee!) <3 Riza also uses her sniper skills to protect Havoc when they're going after Barry the Chopper's body.
2) Winry and Pinako saved Ed's life, the night he and Al transmuted their mom. He was bleeding, literally dying in Al's arms, and who came to the rescue that night? The girls. आप can't deny that we'd have no story if they hadn't been there to save the day. GO ROCKBELLS! =D
(Also, my inner EdWin shipper insists that every time Ed blocks a strike with his automail, it's a little bit of Winry helping to protect him. But that's just my shameless fangirlishness, and I'm not expecting आप to agree at all.) xD
"Here is a sexist point that applied to the female cast in general excluding Olivier Armstrong and perhaps Izumi Curtis, (both of whom I think are so great). The woman were always "second", if आप get what I mean. आप know, Winry serves as Edward's mechanic, Riza Hawkeye is the subordinate, Ran प्रशंसक was the Bodyguard/Servant, and Mei Chan was in the weakest clan of Xing. Riza and Ran प्रशंसक also had the stupid "Bodyguard Crush" trope as part of their character."
(My inner Royai shipper insists that it's extremely inaccurate to describe Riza's feelings for Roy as a mere "crush", but I won't go into that either.) =P
I get what you're saying, though I don't agree. "Second" doesn't automatically mean "unequal" या "less important". It's a position; nothing more. And to me, it doesn't matter whether the man या the woman is second. The most important thing is that they respect each other and treat each other as फ्रेंड्स and equal human beings, something I see a lot of in FMA's man/woman relationships...whether it's Roy/Riza, Ed/Winry, Izumi/Sig या any of the others. I see no sexism in any of this.
I'd also like to observe that just because Winry is Ed's mechanic doesn't mean she's सेकंड to him. She isn't soley Ed's mechanic; she works on a lot of other people, too. Just like Ed's thing is alchemy, her thing is automail - so equating her mechanic work with a "second" position doesn't make sense to me. Winry's skills don't put her behind Ed any और than Ed's skills put him behind Winry.
"My deviant friend, AveriaAlexandros, also pointed out another sexist point is this: none of the females in FMA were fully developed. Winry's was only she had something to cry about, Riza is well…I do not know, plot?"
Then आप might as well call Roy's development "plot" as well, because he and Riza pretty much share the same backstory.
"As for the pasts of Ran प्रशंसक and Mei Chan, we know visually nothing!"
We don't really know anything about Ling's past, either...or anything about the rest of Roy's subordinates (except their general personalities and talents, which goes for the girls as well). They're minor characters, after all.
"Also, what little development we have of Izumi is placed in a side-story!"
This I disagree with. While her backstory isn't completely spelled out like Ed and Al's, we do get some glimpses into her past besides the Briggs side story, and a good feel for who she is as a person. Development doesn't just include backstory; it includes depth and growth over the course of the main story. I think Izumi has this...starting with her tough exterior when we first meet her, going on to the compassion and wisdom she has for children, the way she acts as a mother-figure for Ed and Al, the grief and guilt she feels over her लॉस्ट child, etc. If that's not development, I don't know what is.
And if आप really want to get technical...the only two characters who are truly, extensively, fully developed in the story are the two main protagonists, Ed and Al. Everyone else, male and female, is technically a minor/supporting character; so of course they wouldn't get quite as much attention.
Coming Up Next: The Conclusion.
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NaokoElric writes...
"This brings me onto Ling Yao and Ran Fan. As I कहा earlier, Ran प्रशंसक is mere servant (still cool though, I प्यार her as much as Izumi, Olivier, Hughes and Alex) and not the royalty figure, which Ling is. I know a man (Fu) was a servant too, but that makes no difference!"
Um...why not? Why is it so horrible for Ran प्रशंसक to be a servant, but not Fu? Just because one's a girl and one's a guy? That seems like reverse-sexism to me, which isn't any better than normal sexism. Anytime someone says आप CAN'T do something या choose something because you're this gender या that gender...that's sexism. If I want to be a homemaker या a cook when I grow up, then that's MY choice for ME and I won't have anyone telling me to pick a less "sexist" occupation just because I happen to fit some stereotype they don't like.
*cough* Sorry, didn't mean to rant there...I've gotten too much online crap about this in the past, that's all. Moving on!
"Ran प्रशंसक (a ninja) was turned into a true Damsel in Distress when she was attacked द्वारा Wrath (taken out with just ONE STRIKE!) and had to be rescued and protected द्वारा Ling, a boy and the person she was supposed to be protecting! It just really pisses me off!"
At a glance, I can understand why it makes आप mad, but look at the actual scene. It wasn't because Ran प्रशंसक was weak; it was because she didn't know Wrath wasn't human and was caught completely द्वारा surprise. If she had known what was coming या had an idea of what she was going up against, she would have easily put up और of a fight. Also, while Wrath called her "baggage", Ling called her "friend". He clearly respects and cares for her a lot. I see this the same way I saw the scene with Ed comforting Winry - not a boy saving a girl, but a friend being there for a friend.
"In addition, because she got this injury and had to cut off her arm,"
(Which was AWESOMELY BADASS, I might add...)
"she was out of the majority of the story while Ling got all the adventure and attention!"
I really missed her too, and I do wish she'd gotten और attention in the story. However, her return was also AWESOMELY BADASS with her awesomely badass automail and the awesomely badass-ish way she owned Gluttony, so that somewhat makes up for it in my book. =D
"Ling should have either been female and Ran प्रशंसक male, या Ran प्रशंसक should have been with Ling the whole time, then I would not feel Arakawa-sensei was being sexist towards her own gender."
Once again, I fail to see any real, substantial sexism here, but still encourage आप to have fun with the genderbending. (I do agree and share your frustration that Ran प्रशंसक should have stayed with Ling longer, though. She's so awesome, yet we see so little of her...)
"Now, on to Mei Chan. Even though I do adore her, as she is a "Little Miss Badass" and can use Rentanjutsu, she was still made to cry a lot. For example, when she लॉस्ट Xiao Mei, when Alphonse gave himself over to the gate to restore Edward's arm in मांगा Chapter 107 and when she thought Alphonse was gone."
I can't for the life of me understand why आप think crying is such a bad thing. Crying isn't weak; it's a natural, healthy outlet for your emotions and there's no shame in that for either gender. I cried when my dog ran away and didn't come घर for two days, and I was 16. Why can't a 12/13-year-old Mei cry over her beloved pet, too? As for when Al sacrificed himself...my प्रिय word...[b]context!
Think about it...she's grown to प्यार Al and care a lot about him (at the very least, she has a huge crush on him). They're in the middle of a life-and-death battle, it looks like Father might win, and then Al asks her to do a very hard thing: help him trade his own soul for Ed's arm and everyone's salvation, because he can't do it without her. In a way, it's almost like he's asking her to help kill him या send him into exile. The Gate's no walk in the park. How would आप feel if someone आप cared about asked आप to do something like that? She loves Al. When she thinks he's gone forever - and that it's partly her fault - of course she's going to cry! That doesn't make her sexist; it makes her human! (Ed cried when he लॉस्ट Al too, after they tried to bring back their mom. Does that make him weak as well?)
"In addition, just like Riza and Ran Fan, she had to be rescued! This happens every time she attacked Father. In both incidents, like Ran प्रशंसक before here, it takes ONE BLOODY STRIKE to defeat her and needing rescue and protection द्वारा a boy (Alphonse)! However, the male characters seem to be quite well for a while, despite the fact two of them (the Elrics Brothers) cannot use Alchemy."
But the Elrics were human sacrifices, remember? Father wanted to keep them in good condition, so of course they made it out alright in the first situation. The boys were useful to him; that's the ONLY reason why they survived. And while they couldn't use their alchemy and still avoided injury, they were still rendered powerless द्वारा Envy holding them down...until Mei came along and gave them all a giant rentanjutsu knuckle sandwich. xD Looking back on that fight scene, I think Mei held her own against the humunculi pretty well, until she was distracted for a विभाजित करें, विभक्त करें सेकंड and caught off-guard द्वारा Gluttony. He was the one who took her out that time, not Father; and I think it was और of a fluke than a real, final "defeat". (Also, Mei gets a bit ticked off when Al saves her. "I didn't ask for your help!" If she's a Damsel in Distress, she's a reluctant one.)
As for the सेकंड time...let's get real, here. This is Father we're talking about. The main, ultimate villian. Not even Ed and Al were brave/foolish enough to take him head-on at first. But Mei got cocky, diving straight in before thinking, and that's how she got taken out. Also, keep in mind that she's fast, agile and smart...but muscle-wise, she's no Armstrong. =P Does that make her weak? No, she's just strong in other ways.
"Why, Arakawa-sensei? Why? Why did आप do this, even thought it is clearly implying woman/girls are और easily defeated and weaker than man/boys when we are not?"
Oh yes, CLEARLY Arakawa must have sat up all night rubbing her hands together and thinking, "I'm going to purposely and obviously imply that girls are weaker than boys and put a whole bunch of sexism in my story just to make NaokoElric mad! AND I WILL USE IT FOR WORLD DOMINATION! MWAHAHAHAHAAA..."
"Even Olivier (the great and powerful General) had to get help from her brother to defeat Sloth the सेकंड time around, because Arakawa could not have her defeat him on her own, oh no (I know Izumi and Sig help too)."
Then this point is negated, because Olivier wasn't just saved द्वारा her brother. She was saved because everyone - her brother, Izumi and Sig - all teamed up together with her to defeat Sloth. It was a team effort, not just a man helping a woman.
And I don't think ANYONE could defeat Sloth all on their own, male या female... O.o
"We have absolutely no scenes featuring female characters rescuing/saving the lives of male characters (Mei saving Halling does not count, as Halling was a minor character). However, there were plenty of scenes featuring male characters rescuing/saving the lives of female characters (as I have mentioned above)."
आप do have a good point here, and I agree it would have been refreshing to see at least a couple girl-saves-guy scenes. However, I'd like to point out that you don't necessarily have to jump in front of someone या whisk them away from danger to "save" them, and there are examples of this in the manga:
1) Riza saved Roy at least two times. The first time, she knocked him out of the way and used her बंदूकों when he first went up against Scar on that rainy day. The सेकंड time, she acted as his eyes when he went blind and helped him take Father down a few notches. He would've been completely helpless if she hadn't been there to guide him. (Oh symbolism, how I प्यार thee!) <3 Riza also uses her sniper skills to protect Havoc when they're going after Barry the Chopper's body.
2) Winry and Pinako saved Ed's life, the night he and Al transmuted their mom. He was bleeding, literally dying in Al's arms, and who came to the rescue that night? The girls. आप can't deny that we'd have no story if they hadn't been there to save the day. GO ROCKBELLS! =D
(Also, my inner EdWin shipper insists that every time Ed blocks a strike with his automail, it's a little bit of Winry helping to protect him. But that's just my shameless fangirlishness, and I'm not expecting आप to agree at all.) xD
"Here is a sexist point that applied to the female cast in general excluding Olivier Armstrong and perhaps Izumi Curtis, (both of whom I think are so great). The woman were always "second", if आप get what I mean. आप know, Winry serves as Edward's mechanic, Riza Hawkeye is the subordinate, Ran प्रशंसक was the Bodyguard/Servant, and Mei Chan was in the weakest clan of Xing. Riza and Ran प्रशंसक also had the stupid "Bodyguard Crush" trope as part of their character."
(My inner Royai shipper insists that it's extremely inaccurate to describe Riza's feelings for Roy as a mere "crush", but I won't go into that either.) =P
I get what you're saying, though I don't agree. "Second" doesn't automatically mean "unequal" या "less important". It's a position; nothing more. And to me, it doesn't matter whether the man या the woman is second. The most important thing is that they respect each other and treat each other as फ्रेंड्स and equal human beings, something I see a lot of in FMA's man/woman relationships...whether it's Roy/Riza, Ed/Winry, Izumi/Sig या any of the others. I see no sexism in any of this.
I'd also like to observe that just because Winry is Ed's mechanic doesn't mean she's सेकंड to him. She isn't soley Ed's mechanic; she works on a lot of other people, too. Just like Ed's thing is alchemy, her thing is automail - so equating her mechanic work with a "second" position doesn't make sense to me. Winry's skills don't put her behind Ed any और than Ed's skills put him behind Winry.
"My deviant friend, AveriaAlexandros, also pointed out another sexist point is this: none of the females in FMA were fully developed. Winry's was only she had something to cry about, Riza is well…I do not know, plot?"
Then आप might as well call Roy's development "plot" as well, because he and Riza pretty much share the same backstory.
"As for the pasts of Ran प्रशंसक and Mei Chan, we know visually nothing!"
We don't really know anything about Ling's past, either...or anything about the rest of Roy's subordinates (except their general personalities and talents, which goes for the girls as well). They're minor characters, after all.
"Also, what little development we have of Izumi is placed in a side-story!"
This I disagree with. While her backstory isn't completely spelled out like Ed and Al's, we do get some glimpses into her past besides the Briggs side story, and a good feel for who she is as a person. Development doesn't just include backstory; it includes depth and growth over the course of the main story. I think Izumi has this...starting with her tough exterior when we first meet her, going on to the compassion and wisdom she has for children, the way she acts as a mother-figure for Ed and Al, the grief and guilt she feels over her लॉस्ट child, etc. If that's not development, I don't know what is.
And if आप really want to get technical...the only two characters who are truly, extensively, fully developed in the story are the two main protagonists, Ed and Al. Everyone else, male and female, is technically a minor/supporting character; so of course they wouldn't get quite as much attention.
Coming Up Next: The Conclusion.